Shincheonji · Betrayal, Destruction, Salvation
Shincheonji Salvation Claim vs the Record: Lee Man-hee, 1984
Short answer: Shincheonji teaches that “salvation” began on 14 Mar 1984, when Lee Man-hee, as the promised pastor and “one who overcomes”, founded Shincheonji after the destruction of the Tabernacle Temple. Shincheonji’s own 1997 history, as reproduced by a former member, shows that founding date was announced on 24 Sep 1984; Lee’s 1985 book has no 1984 date and never calls him “New John”; and Shincheonji’s books later disagree on whether Revelation 18 has already been fulfilled.
Shincheonji teaches that after the destruction, Lee Man-hee, the promised pastor and “one who overcomes”, began saving people when Shincheonji was founded on 14 Mar 1984. The record shows that date was chosen in Sep 1984, Lee’s own 1985 book never names him or mentions 1984, and several later claims depend on English copies or on sources that differ. Each event below sets Shincheonji’s account beside the record, and each claim is tagged.
By Chris Vishoot15 min readSource notes
From: Shincheonji
The events, side by side
How to read the tags
We tag every claim so you can see how far it has been checked. Where we could not confirm something, we say so rather than guess.
- Verified
- Confirmed by an independent source, such as a newspaper, court ruling or official record
- Critics’ claim
- Comes from critics or former members. We have not found independent confirmation, so we show it as their claim.
- Sources differ
- Reliable sources give different dates. We show both, and the note says which source gives which.
- SCJ’s own account
- What Shincheonji says or teaches, in its own words. It is shown as its account, not as checked fact.
Each tag has an icon and a word, so it does not rely on colour. Tap “Evidence” on a card to see more detail and sources.
Shincheonji's own books and course do not always agree with each other. Some cards below include a "How SCJ's account changed" row, listing each version from oldest to newest. Where those versions disagree, the row is marked Contradiction or Inconsistency. Where a teaching grows across editions without a direct clash, it is marked Developed doctrine. Caution still applies to outside claims, unverified allegations and second-hand quotes.
Contradiction SCJ’s own books give different dates or facts for the same point. Inconsistency SCJ’s accounts describe the same thing in ways that don’t line up. Developed doctrine A teaching, title or dated claim that appears only in later SCJ sources.
On this page: 1 Contradiction, 1 Inconsistency, 1 Developed doctrine.
1980–1984The founding date: 14 Mar 1984
What Shincheonji teaches
14 Mar 1984
Shincheonji’s newcomers course says “Salvation” runs from 14 Mar 1984 to the present. On 14 Mar 1984 the “Creation of New Spiritual Israel (New Heaven and New Earth) starts” and “the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony is established”. The course dates the first temple, in a Bisan-dong apartment basement, to 3 Jun 1984.
What Shincheonji teaches: Lee Man-hee’s 1985 book
“So this Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony is a church belonging to no denomination. They are only those who saw the destroyer enter and stand in God’s tabernacle of the first covenant, and fled out (Mt 24:16). These few people gather and testify to what they saw and heard in the first tabernacle.”
Source: 계시록의 진상 (The Reality of Revelation), 1985, ch. 15, section 3, pp. 232–234 (PDF p. 156)
The book describes the new temple as already opened. It gives no founding date and has no “1984” anywhere.
Evidence: the book’s Korean text
그러므로 이 증거 장막의 성전은 어떤 교단에도 속하지 아니한 교회이다. 다만 하나님의 첫 언약의 장막에서 멸망자가 그곳에 들어와 선 것을 보고 도망하여 나온 (마 24:16) 자들이다. 이들 몇 사람이 모여서 첫 장막에서 보고 들은 일들을 증거하는 것이다.
English rendering: “So this Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony is a church belonging to no denomination. They are only those who saw the destroyer enter and stand in God’s tabernacle of the first covenant, and fled out (Mt 24:16). These few people gather and testify to what they saw and heard in the first tabernacle.”
What Shincheonji teaches: Lee Man-hee’s 1985 book
“‘Came out of the temple’ means God’s messenger who came out of the second, the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony, which opened after the first tabernacle was destroyed. … That is, the 42-month trampling period has passed and the time of restoration has come.”
Source: 계시록의 진상 (The Reality of Revelation), 1985, ch. 14, section 7, pp. 223–225 (PDF p. 150)
The book ties the restoration and “harvest time” to the end of 42 months. It dates its destruction day to 20 Sep 1981.
Evidence: the book’s Korean text
성전에서 나왔다는 말은 첫 장막이 멸망한 후에 둘째의 증거 장막 성전이 열리었고 그곳에서 나온 하나님의 사자임을 말한다. … 즉 마흔 두달간의 짓밟는 기간이 지나고 회복의 때가 되었다는 뜻이다.
English rendering: “‘Came out of the temple’ means God’s messenger who came out of the second, the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony, which opened after the first tabernacle was destroyed. … That is, the 42-month trampling period has passed and the time of restoration has come.”
What the record shows
1980–1984
According to the former member’s document What it Took for me to Leave, Baek Man-bong “established ‘Recreation Church’ in 1977”, and Lee Man-hee “joined early and became one of Mr. Baek[‘s] 12 disciples”. It says Baek “taught that the world would end in 1980, but when the predicted date passed uneventfully many members left, including Lee Man-Hee and Hong Jong-Hyo, who founded Shincheonji together on 14 March 1980.”
The document says Baek Man-Bong, “former teacher of Lee Man-Hee, and Hong Jong-Hyo, one of the two witnesses who founded Shincheonji with Lee, have both independently verified the 14 March 1980 founding date.”
Citing ‘Development of Shincheonji’ (신천지 발전사, 1997), the document says Lee was released from prison on 2 Feb 1981, led a small group in the mountains from 14 March 1981, and held worship in the basement of the Dongsan apartment from 3 June 1984, “and then on 24 September 1984 it was announced that 14 March 1984 was the founding date of Shincheonji.”
The newcomers course says “7 Years of Judgment lasted from 1984 – 1991 (2 x period of destruction – Rv 18:6)”. This is a belief, so there’s nothing to fact-check.
Shincheonji teaches that the Stewardship Education Center was judged during the seven years of judgment, 1984–1991. According to Closer Look Initiative, a book with the same content as the Center’s 청지기론 was published again in 1995. Disclosure: Bible Vaccine Center and Closer Look Initiative are run by the same team.
According to Closer Look Initiative, Shincheonji now teaches that Revelation 18 was fulfilled only on a small scale, through the judgment of the Stewardship Education Center, completed in 1991. Disclosure: Bible Vaccine Center and Closer Look Initiative are run by the same team.
- Former member’s Google document “What it Took for me to Leave” (reproduces pages of 신천지 발전사 (1997)) (opens in new tab)
- Closer Look Initiative, “Revelation 18 – 19: Changed Fire and Fulfillment” (same team as Bible Vaccine Center) (opens in new tab)
- Interview with Won Se-ho, author of 청지기론 (Naver blog, 23 Dec 2019) (opens in new tab)
- 천지일보, “[만국회의 9주년-세계종교평화아카데미] 계시록 거의 성취…” (21 Sep 2023) (opens in new tab)
Evidence
청지기론 by Won Se-ho (元世鎬), 국제신학연구소; a 1995 printing per the interview Closer Look Initiative cites. The Creation of Heaven and Earth (2009), pp. 242–243: “The events prophesied in Rv 18 have already been physically fulfilled.” Underline added by Closer Look Initiative. SCJ article (CUBS/JSS 400417), English: “The New Covenant, Revelation, has been fulfilled up to Rv 17, and only three chapters—Rv 18, 19, and 20—remain.” As reproduced by Closer Look Initiative; its annotation is cropped out. The same article in Korean: “신약 계시록은 계 17장까지 이루어졌고, 계 18, 19, 20장, 3개의 장만 남아 있다.” As reproduced by Closer Look Initiative. How SCJ’s account changedCompare what SCJ’s books said over time — tap to openContradiction
The seven years of judgment
- 1985 · 계시록의 진상
Not mentioned
- 1995 · The Reality of the RevelationEnglish translation of the 1993 Korean
Seven years of judgment after the 42 months; no dates. p. 21
- 2014 · The Creation of Heaven and Earth
Not mentioned
- 2015 · The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation
Seven years as the judgment of Babylon; no dates. p. 465
- Current course
1984 to 1991. course, p. 70
Consistent on the idea; only the course gives years.
Was Revelation 18 fulfilled? Contradiction
- 1985 · 계시록의 진상
Fulfilled (past tense): 음녀와 그의 조직이 망하여 큰 성 바벨론이 무너진 후에 발생한 사건이 이 18장의 일이다. (“The events of chapter 18 are what happened after the harlot and her organization were destroyed and Babylon fell.”) pp. 271–272
- 1995 · The Reality of the RevelationEnglish translation of the 1993 Korean
Through the chapter 16, 17 and 18, God repaied by judging the enemy.
SetAt the time of the Second Advent
(p. 235). p. 242Quoted from a scanned copy, being checked against print - 2014 · The Creation of Heaven and Earth
The events prophesied in Rv 18 have already been physically fulfilled.
2014 printing (1st English ed. 2009), p. 244 - 2015 · The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation
Today, the fulfillment of these prophecies has come.
p. 453 - 2023 · 천지일보 (SCJ’s newspaper)
Lee Man-hee: 계시록이 17장까지 이뤄졌고, 18장 이후가 남았다 (“Revelation has been fulfilled up to chapter 17; chapter 18 onward remains.”) 천지일보, 21 Sep 2023 (opens in new tab)
- Current · SCJ article
The New Covenant, Revelation, has been fulfilled up to Rv 17, and only three chapters—Rv 18, 19, and 20—remain.
CUBS/JSS article 400417, as reproduced by Closer Look Initiative.
Contradiction From 1985 to 2015 SCJ's books present Revelation 18 as already fulfilled. The 2009 book says its events 'have already been physically fulfilled', and the newcomers course dates the judgment to 1984–1991. By 2023 Lee Man-hee said Revelation was fulfilled only up to chapter 17, with chapter 18 onward still to come.
1950s–1970sLee Man-hee’s earlier groups and the “promised pastor”
What Shincheonji teaches
1977–1984
Shincheonji’s newcomers course calls Lee Man-hee “New John” and says Jesus anointed him “as promised pastor”. It presents him as the one who overcomes and who, after the destruction, saves.
What Shincheonji teaches: Lee Man-hee’s 1985 book
“[It is] the blood and flesh that can be eaten through today’s overcomer, that is, him who fought the beast and won.”
Source: 계시록의 진상 (The Reality of Revelation), 1985, ch. 22, section 7, pp. 335–336 (PDF p. 243)
The book does not name the overcomer. Elsewhere (ch. 12, section 8, pp. 189–192) it calls Michael and the brothers with him “the overcomers”, in the plural.
Evidence: the book’s Korean text
오늘에 이긴자 곧 짐승과 싸워서 이긴 그로 말미암아 먹을 수 있는 피와 살이다.
English rendering: “[It is] the blood and flesh that can be eaten through today’s overcomer, that is, him who fought the beast and won.”
What Shincheonji teaches: Lee Man-hee’s 1985 book
“So this is a type showing God’s will that in the end times such an earthly commissioned one will appear, eat the book and complete the Lord’s mission. Therefore the appearance of a John-like figure is inevitable…”
Source: 계시록의 진상 (The Reality of Revelation), 1985, ch. 10, section 1, pp. 145–147 (PDF p. 93)
The book speaks of “a John-like figure”. It does not use the phrase “New John” and does not name Lee Man-hee.
Evidence: the book’s Korean text
그러므로 종말기에 이와 같은 지상의 사명자가 나타나 책을 받아 먹고 주의 사명을 완수하기로 작정된 하나님의 뜻을 보여준 예표이다. 따라서 사도 요한적인 인물의 출현이 불가피하며…
English rendering: “So this is a type showing God’s will that in the end times such an earthly commissioned one will appear, eat the book and complete the Lord’s mission. Therefore the appearance of a John-like figure is inevitable…”
What the record shows
1950s–1970s
Mary Briggs (CDAMM, 6 Jun 2025) supports the outline of Lee’s background: he was in the Olive Tree movement and later in Baek Man-bong’s group before the Tabernacle Temple. That source is cited only for those earlier groups, not for any March 1980 or Chun Doo-hwan sequence. The critics’ BDS report gives his Olive Tree years as 1956–66 in one place and 1957–67 in another.
Olive Tree years: 1956–1966 in one part of the critics’ report, 1957–1967 in another.
Accounts differ on whether Lee joined Baek Man-bong’s group early or was the last of his twelve.
The book 신탄 asks “Who is the overcomer?” and answers that he is the Counselor called as a mission-bearer in the flesh (p. 353). Caption: 신탄 (1986, by 김건남 and 김병희), an early book circulated in Shincheonji; Shincheonji has since distanced itself from it.
Evidence
Mary Briggs, CDAMM, is cited only for Lee’s time in the Olive Tree movement and Baek Man-bong’s group. It is not used for any March 1980 or Chun Doo-hwan sequence. The two Olive Tree date ranges both come from the same critics’ report, so we show both.
How SCJ’s account changedCompare what SCJ’s books said over time — tap to openDeveloped doctrine
Overcomer: many or one Developed doctrine
- 1985 · 계시록의 진상
Plural overcomers, Michael’s brothers (이긴 자요, 승리자들이다). pp. 189–192
- 1995 · The Reality of the RevelationEnglish translation of the 1993 Korean
The man who overcame shall found twelve tribes
. p. 17Quoted from a scanned copy, being checked against print - 2014 · The Creation of Heaven and Earth
“One who overcomes” and “promised pastor” throughout.
- 2015 · The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation
the new John
. pp. 91, 107 - Current course
“New John”; no plural overcomers.
Developed doctrine Earlier books allow plural overcomers; later books and the course centre a single New John / one who overcomes.
- 1985 · 계시록의 진상
2020The 144,000 sealed before the tribulation
What Shincheonji teaches
Teaching
Lee Man-hee’s book The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation (pp. 160–163) teaches that the 144,000 are sealed before the tribulation.
Source: The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation, p. 160–163
What the record shows
2020
In a special letter in March 2020, Lee called COVID-19 the “tribulation of Revelation” (JoongAng Ilbo, 2 Mar 2020). If sealing has to come before the tribulation, the timing of that claim and the teaching are hard to reconcile.
Read the full story on the 144,000 →
Evidence
The book is quoted from its English edition. The JoongAng Ilbo report summarises Lee’s letter; we have not seen the letter itself.
2020–2021The great multitude
What Shincheonji teaches
Teaching
Lee Man-hee’s book The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation teaches that after the 144,000, a great multitude in white will come.
Source: The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation, p. 160–164
What the record shows
2020–2021
Shincheonji’s explanations of when the great multitude comes have changed. The same book (pp. 161–163) also contradicts the claim that older teaching left out evangelism.
Read the full story on the great multitude →
2015 · The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation
- p. 160
The great multitude is gathered after the sealing of the 144,000 is complete and comes out of the tribulation.
- p. 164
People should gather as the 144,000 are being sealed so they too can become a part of that number.
The same book also says people should join while the 144,000 is still being sealed (p. 164).
2014 · The Creation of Heaven and Earth
p. 560: “the sealing of the 144,000 people of the twelve tribes is still taking place … After this sealing is complete, the great multitude dressed in white will also come.”
Evidence
PFR quoted from the English 1st edition (2015), printed page numbers; Creation of Heaven and Earth from the 2014 English edition, p. 560. The full sourcing for later doctrine changes is on the Immortality page linked above.
How SCJ’s account changedCompare what SCJ’s books said over time — tap to openInconsistency
The 144,000 and the great multitude
- 1985 · 계시록의 진상
Not mentioned
- 1995 · The Reality of the RevelationEnglish translation of the 1993 Korean
The 144,000 are sealed first, then a great multitude comes. p. 111
- 2014 · The Creation of Heaven and Earth
first put God’s seal on the foreheads of 144,000 people, and then the great multitude
. p. 104 - 2015 · The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation
The multitude comes after the sealing. pp. 160–163
- Current course
Not mentioned
Consistent across the three later books.
End-time battles Inconsistency
- 1985 · 계시록의 진상
Not mentioned
- 1995 · The Reality of the RevelationEnglish translation of the 1993 Korean
Not mentioned
- 2014 · The Creation of Heaven and Earth
horrible battle from the end of 1982 through 1983
. p. 211 - 2015 · The Physical Fulfillment of Revelation
two battles
. p. 12 - Current course
Not mentioned
Inconsistency The 2015 book speaks of “two battles”; the 2014 book dates a “horrible battle” to 1982–83.
- p. 160
Earlier teachingThe seven bowls named as people
What Shincheonji teaches
Rev 16
Shincheonji teaches that each of the seven bowls of Revelation 16 is a person, a messenger of the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony.
What the record shows
Earlier teaching
According to Closer Look Initiative, Shincheonji once named the seven bowls as Lee Man-hee, Hong Jong-hyo, Ji Jae-seop, Lee Jong-ho, Yang Eul-gyu, Kim Dae-won and Shim Jae-kwon. It reports that all but Lee later left or were expelled; Hong Jong-hyo, it says, claimed to be the Second Coming and left. Disclosure: Bible Vaccine Center and Closer Look Initiative are run by the same team.
Evidence
The images below are reproduced by Closer Look Initiative.
Seven portraits labelled as the seven bowls (선생님 [Lee Man-hee], 홍종효, 지재섭, 이종호, 양을규, 김대원, 심재권), as reproduced by Closer Look Initiative. Faces of private individuals blurred. 천지창조, p. 168: the “measure of wheat and three measures of barley” (Rev 6:6) are the small group of saints who become the seed of spiritual Israel. 2014–2017The Mindanao peace claim
What Shincheonji teaches
24 Jan 2014
HWPL, the peace group linked to Shincheonji, presents its civilian peace ceremony in Mindanao on 24 Jan 2014 as bringing peace there.
What the record shows
2014–2017
HWPL’s ceremony on 24 Jan 2014 was a civilian event. The government–MILF peace agreement was signed separately, on 27 Mar 2014, after a framework agreement in 2012. The fighting in Marawi in 2017 came later.
Evidence
The government dates come from the Philippine peace office; Marawi from ACAPS.
1980–2022The legal record
What Shincheonji teaches
We found no Shincheonji account of the 2022 ruling in our sources.
What the record shows
1980–2022
On 12 Aug 2022 the Supreme Court’s 2nd Division upheld Lee Man-hee’s sentence of 3 years, suspended for 5 years, for embezzlement of about ₩5 billion related to the ‘Palace of Peace’ construction and for obstruction over religious events in public facilities (2015–2019), and upheld his acquittal on the infectious-disease-law charge (Yonhap, 12 Aug 2022). The first instance had given 3 years, suspended for 4. This chapter does not repeat his 98-day detention in 1980–81; it is set out in the Betrayal chapter.
Read the lawsuits card in Betrayal →
The newcomers course says Lee’s parole ended on 7 Feb 1984. From his release on 2 Feb 1981 to 7 Feb 1984 is about 3 years, which matches neither the 2.5 years in Lee’s 1985 book nor the 3.5 years in the critics’ report. We have not checked it against the judgment.
Evidence
Yonhap reported the Supreme Court outcome on 12 Aug 2022. We have not retrieved the full judgment. Church and Faith (2008) gives the 1981 deferred sentence on 2 Feb 1981.
Sourcing noteWe have not yet asked Shincheonji for comment. Disclosure: Bible Vaccine Center and Closer Look Initiative are run by the same team.
The series in brief
What Shincheonji teaches: Shincheonji teaches that the Tabernacle Temple’s leaders betrayed God’s covenant from 1966 to 1980.
What the record shows: Newspapers of the time confirm the 1975 arrest and 1976 conviction of Yoo Jae-yeol, but several of Shincheonji’s dates differ from the record.
What Shincheonji teaches: Shincheonji teaches that “destroyers” took over and razed the temple from 1980 to 1984.
What the record shows: Shincheonji’s own sources give different start dates, and the site was slated for Seoul Grand Park in 1977, before the period.
Chapter 3: Salvation (this page)
What Shincheonji teaches: Shincheonji teaches that Lee Man-hee, the promised pastor, began saving people on 14 Mar 1984.
What the record shows: That founding date was chosen in Sep 1984; Lee’s 1985 book has no 1984 date and never calls him “New John”.
Frequently asked questions
What does “salvation” mean in Shincheonji’s teaching?
It is the third stage of Shincheonji’s betrayal, destruction and salvation sequence. Shincheonji’s newcomers course says “Salvation” runs from 14 Mar 1984 to the present, when it says the creation of New Spiritual Israel (the new heaven and new earth) began and the Temple of the Tabernacle of the Testimony was established. The course calls Lee Man-hee “New John” and the promised pastor who, after the destruction, saves, and it dates seven years of judgment to 1984–1991. Lee’s 1985 book ties the time of restoration to the end of 42 months but gives no founding date and does not name him. The Betrayal chapter and Destruction chapter cover the stages before it.
When was Shincheonji founded?
Shincheonji gives 14 Mar 1984. 신천지 발전사 (1997), as reproduced in a former member’s document, shows that date was chosen in an announcement on 24 Sep 1984, after earlier meetings from 1981. A statement attributed to Hong Jong-hyo gives 14 Mar 1980. A later-chosen anniversary alone doesn’t prove anything was faked.
Does Lee Man-hee’s 1985 book call him “New John”?
No. The book speaks of “a John-like figure” and of overcomers, but never names Lee and never mentions 1984. “New John” comes from the newcomers course.
Did HWPL bring peace to Mindanao?
HWPL held a civilian ceremony on 24 Jan 2014. The government–MILF agreement was signed separately on 27 Mar 2014, and fighting in Marawi followed in 2017.
What did the Supreme Court decide in 2022?
On 12 Aug 2022 the Supreme Court’s 2nd Division upheld Lee Man-hee’s sentence of 3 years, suspended for 5, for embezzlement of about ₩5 billion related to the Palace of Peace construction and for obstruction over religious events in public facilities (2015–2019), and his acquittal on the infectious-disease-law charge. The first instance had given 3 years, suspended for 4.
Source notes
- Closer Look Initiative, “Revelation 18 – 19: Changed Fire and Fulfillment” (same team as Bible Vaccine Center). https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9577 (opens in new tab)
- Former member’s Google document “What it Took for me to Leave” (reproduces pages of 신천지 발전사 (1997)). https://docs.google.com/document/d/17P062sgDcp3PfmRaE_Znw9iSxkJXq4s2zOVR9kfCJcw/edit (opens in new tab)
- Interview with Won Se-ho, author of 청지기론 (Naver blog, 23 Dec 2019). https://m.blog.naver.com/macodo777/221746949799 (opens in new tab)
- 천지일보, “[만국회의 9주년-세계종교평화아카데미] 계시록 거의 성취…” (21 Sep 2023). https://www.newscj.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=3065717 (opens in new tab)
- Mary Briggs, CDAMM, 6 Jun 2025. https://www.cdamm.org/articles/shincheonji-church-of-jesus (opens in new tab)
- JoongAng Ilbo, 2 Mar 2020, “[단독] 신천지 이만희, 특별편지서 ‘코로나, 요한계시록 환난’” (Lee Man-hee’s special letter calls COVID the tribulation of Revelation). https://www.joongang.co.kr/article/23719365 (opens in new tab)
- Closer Look Initiative, “Revelation 16 – The Missing Bowls” (same team as Bible Vaccine Center). https://closerlookinitiative.com/archives/9571 (opens in new tab)
- Philippine peace office: 2012 Framework Agreement. https://peace.gov.ph/2012/10/framework-agreement-bangsamoro/ (opens in new tab)
- Philippine peace office: timeline. https://peace.gov.ph/timeline-event/page/10/ (opens in new tab)
- Philippine peace office: MILF FAQ. https://peace.gov.ph/milf/faqs/ (opens in new tab)
- ACAPS: Marawi displacement, 1 Jun 2017. https://www.acaps.org/en/countries/archives/detail/philippines-displacement-in-marawi-city-lanao-del-sur (opens in new tab)
- Yonhap, 12 Aug 2022, “[2보] 신천지 이만희 ‘방역방해’ 무죄 확정…횡령 등은 유죄”. https://www.yna.co.kr/view/AKR20220812051551004 (opens in new tab)
- Church and Faith, Lim Woong-ki, 14 Jul 2008. https://www.amennews.com/news/articleView.html?idxno=8705 (opens in new tab)
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